Hollie Benton 0:04
You are listening to Doulos a podcast of the Ephesus School Network. Doulos offers a scriptural daily bread for God's household and explores servant leadership as an Orthodox Christian. I'm Hollie Benton, your host and executive director for the Orthodox Christian leadership initiative. Our co-host is Fr. Timothy Lowe, retired priest and former rector of the Tantur Ecumenical Institute in Jerusalem. And our guest today is Fr. Paul Hodge. Father Paul has served within the Antiochian Archdiocese for over 25 years. He currently serves as president of the Minnesota Eastern Orthodox Christian Clergy Association, and in 2020, he was appointed spiritual advisor for Ancient Faith Ministries and Publishing. Father Paul Hodge also works with the Orthodox Christian Leadership Initiative as a peer learning facilitator, a parish health coach, and the administrator of the growing Orthodox Coaching Network. So welcome, Father Paul, Ggeat to be with you and Father Timothy both.

Fr. Paul Hodge 1:03
Hi, Hollie. Hi, Fr. Timothy. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me as your guest,

Fr. Timothy Lowe 1:07
Fr. Paul, Hollie, it's great to be with you today. I'm glad I'm here.

Hollie Benton 1:12
Yes. Fr. Paul, you suggested we turn to St. Paul's epistle to the Romans for today's reading. As you know, doulos, the title of this podcast is the Greek New Testament word for servant or slave. We have many instances in scripture where Doulos is used to describe the posture or the role that we have, not only with respect to our Lord and Master, but even to one another. For example, Jesus says, Whoever would be first must be slave, or doulos, of all. Out of deference to Christ, we are called to submit to one another in love. Even Jesus emptied himself taking the form of a doulos, a slave, and humbled Himself and became obedient to death, even on a cross. So the passage we'll be referring today in Romans, however, doesn't address the doulos in the Lord's household, but instead addresses the sons of God. He talks about a spirit of sonship, those who would cry out Abba Father, as children. And the text says, And if children then also heirs. So this sounds great and exciting to be addressed as a child of God and the glory we anticipate. But it's not as simple as just name it and claim it and expect nothing but a rich inheritance from our Heavenly Father. There's a larger context here, isn't there? So before we read the passage, Fr. Paul, what should we keep in mind about Paul's letter to the Romans that leads up to this passage in chapter eight?

Fr. Paul Hodge 2:41
Sure, Hollie. We who cry out Abba Father, we are crying out as children. And we even say the prayer that the Lord gave us. to pray to God as a son of God, to say, Our Father who art in heaven, as a child of God. But in the text, it's a little more nuanced, because it's the spirit by whom we cry, Abba, Father, we claim it, right, as children and sons, but it's a gift from God to be such. And that's what I want to reflect on when we look at the passage you're about to read.

Fr. Timothy Lowe 3:16
I find Paul's letter to the Romans complex, especially since we spend so much time talking about doulos, being a slave. Now we're talking about son. So I'm really interested to see how Paul presents this idea in the next few verses that you're about to read, and to see what might be the connection between the two. And ultimately, what is it telling us to do, because as you know, at the end of the day, there's a bottom line. And so I'm interested in how Paul presents something, i.e. something that appears glorious - sonship, calling God Abba, which is an intimate term, then to knock us down a little bit lest we have, as you say, the name and then claim it. So let's just see what happens here.

Hollie Benton 3:55
So here's this passage now from Romans 8, beginning at verse 12. "So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live, for all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of sonship. When we cry, Abba, Father, it is the Spirit Himself, bearing witness with our spirit, that we are children of God. And if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him, in order that we may also be glorified with Him." So Father Paul, if I may, it's been very helpful for me to remember that being led by the Spirit of God isn't just some kind of gut feeling that I have that I'm on the right path. It's so easy to let my own ego, my thoughts, my desires, my will to be so convincing, that I can't see my own self righteousness for what it is. So quite simply being led by the spirit is being animated by the word of God, the instruction of God. Literally, we hear the word of God proclaimed, we memorize it, we meditate on it. And God's will, made known through His scripture, is then what motivates and animates his children, even if we're faced with suffering. So what is this relationship between co-suffering and sonship? And as Father Timothy suggested, even the relationship between suffering and slavery, serving as a doulos, and sonship?

Fr. Paul Hodge 5:40
In line with what you're saying, Hollie, is that sometimes we especially, we Orthodox, who have you know, the beautiful doctrine of the Holy images, and we understand that all people, the sons of Adam are created after the image and according to the likeness of God. And sometimes we arrogate that to ourselves and say, well, if we're in the image of God, then whatever we do is going to be inspired. It's maybe the other side of name it and claim it, instead of my will engaged to claim some promise and feel self satisfied about being a son of God, we just give this kind of lazy thing, well, I'm baptized, I have the Holy Spirit, so I can trust that whatever I come up with is according to God's will. But your point is absolutely correct that it's tested by the Holy Scripture, it's bounded by the Holy Scripture, it's directed and aligned with the Holy Scripture. When we see what the apostle is saying in this passage, we get a little puzzled when we're talking about doulos, servitude, slavery. And then we hear St. Paul say, you did not receive the spirit of slavery. Well, what's going on here, and here's where I see the resolution of this is, you receive the Spirit of adoption, the spirit by whom we cry to God, as a child to his father. And the Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are God's children. So we're confirmed by God himself, then therefore, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if we suffer with Him. Not even if we suffer, but only if, and the way that we suffer with Him is to do as he did, as he said, if you would be my disciples, you will take up your cross and follow me. And so by emptying ourselves of this inheritance, just as he did, in the Incarnation, and throughout his life and ministry, through the crucifixion and burial, if we suffer with Him, specifically in that self-emptying way, then we are truly heirs, then we're truly sons of the Father, truly fellow heirs with Christ as heirs of God, as the descendants, the inheritors. That's how I see the connection. So it's not just a consolation when we suffer. It's an invitation to find the inheritance by taking up the cross, and being a servant, being a doulos tou theou, and walking in that way.

Hollie Benton 8:24
I love the relationship that you made also, that it's not just about suffering. It's not just about getting in a car accident or about, I don't know, being addicted to something and suffering with that addiction, but it really is about suffering with him, emulating the suffering of Christ. And even Christ Himself, thinking about the Philippians passage, even though he was equal to God, he did not claim equality. Christ did not claim equality with God but emptied himself taking the form of a servant. So again, he acted as a servant and also acted as a son, doing his father's will. So it's paired together there, I would say in that context.

Fr. Paul Hodge 9:04
Yeah. So this way, my humility is not some kind of doormat experience where I'm powerless. My humility is an act of my will, which I undertake because of zeal and energy and sure knowledge that I have this status of worth before God, that I then freely offer in love for him and for my neighbor. I think it was St. Isaac of Syria, who said in one of his ascetical homilies, If one chooses to suffer, voluntarily, then involuntary sufferings will be fewer. If one seeks to avoid voluntary suffering, involuntary sufferings will come nonetheless. His point being suffering is part of existence. I mean, even in Asian religions like Buddhism, the diagnosis is correct, right? Suffering is part of existence. We suffer getting out of bed in the morning, right? It's not a car accident. But it's pain in the neck. Right? Because we have to change state. We're feeling comfortable. Now we have to do something uncomfortable. When we can unite all of that suffering that arises just from existing, we connect that to this eternal life of God in Jesus Christ. It suddenly empowers us, even in the middle of our suffering, to know that we're participating in something that isn't vain and fruitless and meaningless. So that as Fr. Tom Hopko used to say in our Dogmatics and other classes at St. Vladimir's Seminary, even someone in the hospital bed with cancer can be part of the redemption and salvation of the world. By understanding that this is our approach to the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

Hollie Benton 11:00
That's beautiful.

Fr. Paul Hodge 11:01
Yeah, it is. It is. It's profound, it's moving. It's poetic. It's completely awesome. And then St. Paul, even in the next few verses goes on to talk about suffering. So he's talked about being a son of God, not having a spirit of slavery and to fear, like humiliation and all I'm allowing myself to be taken advantage of, because that's what a good Christian does. But I'm acting out of identity with the Lord who submits to be crucified. I am acting out of that noble inheritance. And so he says that our present sufferings can't be compared to the glory that will be revealed to us. For the creation waits for the revelation of, not of God, He says, the revelation of the sons of God,

Fr. Timothy Lowe 11:49
This idea, not of the flesh, but of the Spirit, which is so basic to Christianity, that if it's all on the level of the flesh, it's all about our DNA, our background or history, Jew, Gentile, Scythian, slave, bond, free, etc, etc, all of that which is absolutely done away with. And so this connection of adoption with the Lord's baptism is a critical point. Immediately, if you look at the text, and at least what I'm thinking of now is in Matthew chapter three, after He's baptized and the Spirit descends, and this is my beloved Son with whom I'm well pleased, then the spirit leads him into the wilderness. And this idea of the Spirit leading now, that we are led by the Spirit, and we have a debt to the spirit, a debt to the Father, the debt of sonship, that we have to again, live out. And so this idea that, again, we've become heirs, as long as we are led solely by the Spirit, otherwise, it all falls apart. And we know ultimately, as you said, earlier, in the podcast, it is the way of the cross all over again. Because what is being led by the Spirit? It's not about Oh, should I go or do this. It's about the scriptural obedience to what is before us. And time and again, of course, in the gospels, and Paul talks about the cross, the cross, the cross. The cross. And that's why I love this punch line where he says, If you suffer with him, then you will be heirs. So on the one hand, we have this offering, this is who we are, this is who we should be. But again, this idea that we have to suffer and when we think of suffering, we think solely living according to the will of God, choosing the will of God, however, that works itself out in our life, which is unique, okay. It's doing the commandments, hearing what God has to say, and doing them in and out without question, because that is the way of the spirit, and not the way of the flesh which is my petty ego, my ticky, tacky selfishness, my ridiculous interests or whatever, they have nothing to do with the spirit or with sonship.

Fr. Paul Hodge 13:39
Or my arrogating to myself, the promises as if I can simply name it and claim it, and short circuit, not go through the most excellent way of humility, on the path to glory. All of that is according to the flesh and is either delusional or dead. I remember in grad school, as I was walking down Broadway in New York City, I saw a sign on the Presbyterian Church that was a quote from the French philosopher, Simone Veil. And the quote was, Christianity doesn't explain our suffering; it gives us something to do with it.

Fr. Timothy Lowe 14:18
And this idea that we are heirs, but the inheritance comes at the end judgment. In other words, how is Christ shown victorious? An heir? He is raised from the dead. That's when he's victorious. Humility becomes glory. And as you say, we want to jump ahead.

Fr. Paul Hodge 14:37
We want to delight in it. Now, the thing is, God will provide it to us by way of consolation. But as one of my teachers, Fr. Thomas Hopko, always used to say, one of his little aphorisms, Beware consolation before crucifixion. We want to have the beauty of Orthodoxy. We want to have all of the joy on our own terms, immediately, you know, like kids, they want to eat dessert first. But you have to eat your peas. You know, you have to be healthy and obey what's given. And your point too is a good one that St. Paul, even in the very next verses, illustrates that it's at the end. This glory is awaited at the end of all things, that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God's children. So we have received as a gift to which we are bound and obligated. You know how it's hard for some people, when they receive a gift, they feel like now they have to give a gift? They feel indebted to the giver. And that's what St. Paul seems to be saying here is we've received this gift. And now you are under obligation to what's been given to you. You can see how important it is to know the original Greek, because the word debtors, in the translation I have which is new English translation, specifies that more. It's the same idea, but it says we are under obligation, not to the flesh, but to the Spirit who makes you a son. And then that makes you an heir, just as the Son, the uncreated co-eternal word of God, the Son of God, is an heir of of everything that is the Father's. Any son is an heir of everything that is the father's. So you have that same sonship by adoption for the sake of the whole cosmos. The whole creation suffers, St. Paul then says, we have the first fruits of the spirit, and we groan inwardly, as we eagerly await that adoption, the redemption of our bodies. This is like this incredible cosmic teaching that he's giving. And there's hope that he's giving. But then he says, Who hopes for what he sees? We don't see the glory. What we see is the pigsty, right? Like the prodigal son, he comes to himself and remembers, in Luke's gospel, that there's a better place in the house of the father. And he undertakes a journey and effort, he resolves his own will, he commits himself, he puts himself under obligation to go back there, the place he can't see, all smells is the stench and sees is the filth, but he hopes for what he doesn't see. And then he has some eagerness to return, but in humility to say, as a slave, make me a slave.

Fr. Timothy Lowe 17:31
Being led by the Spirit is the way of the cross. It's the way of obedience to the Father's voice. And his instruction, which is primarily moral, ethical instruction, do this commandment, love your neighbor, give to those in need, and so on and so forth. And it's not,Oh well, should I become a priest, should I go to seminary? So many Christians, various denominations think about their personal life that has nothing to do with being led by the Spirit. It's simply following the way of Christ, which is submission, obedience, and then positing his life into the hands of the Father. Do with it as you want, thy will be done.

Fr. Paul Hodge 18:06
We have this program in Orthodox Christian Leadership Initiative, we have the Doulos intensive servant leadership programs. In my own mind, I switch those words around, in light of these passages about the glorious freedom of God's children. When you're a Christian, baptized into Christ, you're a believer who takes up the cross who obeys the commandments, in hope of this glory. You are a leader, you have been made one through baptism, you are leading the whole creation into redemption and salvation in Jesus Christ, by your flesh, being immersed in the death of Christ by being a co heir with Him through baptism. And so then what you become is not a servant leader, but you become a leading servant. You don't have to be a priest to be a leader in that way. And in the faith, whatever role you are in, if it is this cross-bearing that you're undertaking that gives you that role, you are leading the whole universe into salvation, in submission to Jesus Christ, who is its savior.

Fr. Timothy Lowe 19:16
And if we listen to St. Paul, sometimes it's the lesser members that are more important. I'm saying that to dig you and I as priests.

Fr. Paul Hodge 19:23
Oh, yeah, and I mean, you know, I had a parishioner who used to under his breath on Holy Monday when I would intone the gospel, "Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees," he would go, "and priests," you know, just to help me, you know. And the Lord too, he says, you know, there'll be a lot of surprises on the last day, that the publicans and the harlots will enter the kingdom before those who are outwardly righteous. So it's absolutely this is a gospel to me first. When I was talking with my bishop, I said, you know, hyper-piously, "Oh, of course, I am the first of sinners," and he looked at me said, "No, you're not." And I was like, What?!? I said, "Your Grace, can you explain what you mean when you say that? Because I don't get it." He says, "I am." I said, "Okay, okay, you can be the first of sinners, but now you have to explain to me how we can both be first, or how does that work?" And he said, "Look, my understanding is, this is a conversation between two persons, me, the created person, and the Lord. So, between those two who's the first of sinners?" And I said, "Yeah, I guess if I'm not comparing myself or judging others, then I have to be the one because the Lord is without sin."

Fr. Timothy Lowe 20:43
You see my cheekiness is, Excuse me, Paul's the first of sinners, and therefore, since we cannot be greater than the Apostle Paul, who are you to take Paul's place?

Fr. Paul Hodge 20:53
That's right. That's right.

Fr. Timothy Lowe 20:56
It's another way of slamming his Corinthians because they were bad news. And now I'm your father in Christ, that means you're less than the first, so you don't even rate.

Hollie Benton 21:10
Well, thank you both. I appreciate the reflection on this passage in Romans 8, this relationship of slavery and sonship, serving as a doulos and serving as a son. Thank you for that.

Fr. Paul Hodge 21:22
And remember to read the whole letter, if not at least the whole chapter. And don't just stick with one or two verses, but read the whole text so you understand the meaning that the apostle is delivering entirely, this good news that opens the way to glory through the bearing of the cross.

Hollie Benton 21:44
Amen.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai